“Climbing to darkness, shedding the light.”
Welcome to In Conversation, a special interview column on the site where we sit down with artists and dive deep into everything music. This week Dobbin and Emily Cole chatted to Dylan Desmond and Jesse Shreibman of Bell Witch.
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Dobbin: I wanted to start with the artwork of Mirror Reaper. The painter, Mariuz Lewandowski, passed in 2022. What was the process like working with Mariuz, did you go back and forth or was the piece just ready?
Dylan: There was very little back and forth. We found a random email on the internet and thought, I don’t know if this will work or not. He had always wanted to do an album cover, and asked for our ideas. We threw our ideas at him, he said, OK, give me a little while, a month and a half or so. He wrote back with the initial piece to ask what we thought – it was pretty damn close to the final thing. I remember looking at it with Jesse, both speechless. Sometimes things take a minute to hit you. As the day continued on, I kept thinking about it… like, that is the fucking coolest artwork!
Jesse: There was actually so little back and forth, we were actually a little concerned. It took a while to find is contact, and it took a few weeks to get back. It was radio silence for a while, and we were unsure if it was going to even happen, and match up with the release. I think he was just working on it. The second everyone saw it, it was universally understood that it ruled. There wasn’t much to edit – I remember you and I were trying to figure out things to change, and it was almost this funny circular conversation, because there wasn’t really anything to change.
Jesse: The biggest challenge was how it’s reversed. I think the funniest or most interesting aspect of the album artwork to album very serendipitously worked out in a cool way. If you were to open the record in the normal English speaking country would open something, the way he painted it, the front cover would be on the back. We spent so much time trying to figure out how to puzzle the image around to fit where you would open it left to right, and it was impossible, obviously. So then we were like, fuck it, it’s going to go backwards.
Dobbin: Could you say, you mirrored it?
Jesse: Yeah – the whole thing fell together in a very natural, organic way, which I have yet to see happen since. There’s no question that his artwork brought that album into the sight of people who wouldn’t have otherwise noticed it, because the art was just so incredible and unique, because he had never done one. So we benefited from that, and in the same token, he got to fulfil this lifelong dream of doing an album cover. It’s still astonishing to me that no one had ever asked him. It catapulted both us and him in this way that was very organic.
Dobbin: From my perspective, Mirror Reaper was certainly your breakout record. Did it feel that way?
Dylan: There was definitely a difference in the reception from the albums before that to that one. It was a pretty big jump. By the time Four Phantoms finished, we maybe had 50 people at a show. After Mirror Reaper, there were hundreds at a show, and we were selling a lot of merch. We weren’t sure how to prepare for that, it was awesome. I don’t think we expected that at all, we were joking that it would be quite the opposite.
Dobbin: Now that it’s six or seven years old, what’s the significance of Mirror Reaper to you? For me, I can’t separate it from this sense of loss – it feels like album about moving on, how it moves slowly and resolves. With the context of Adrian and now Mariusz’ passing, you can’t unpick the sense of loss from that. At the same time, it did catapult you to being a known-name in the scene.
Dylan: I feel pretty good about it. I was thinking about this the other day – if in some way we could show it to Adrian Guerra, and say, “Check this out: you died, you’re dead now. And we wrote this album that was kind of connected to that, for us. And we put your vocals on it.” There’s a lot in there… if we could show him that, I think he’s say “that’s fucking cool”. He’d be proud of it. That’s a big deal. I guess that’s not a new thought that’s crossed my mind. It’s nice that that feeling hasn’t waned at all.
Jesse: At that time, obviously the album correlated to that loss, and that’s where the focus was. But what’s been interesting too is the number of people who come up and say that Mirror Reaper helped me through a more recent loss. I think that the amount of years between when it was created and why it was created, there’s a universality that has been really interesting to experience. That specific loss, it’s a bookmark on it, forever. That’s why those questions will come up six or seven years later, and they’ll continue to come up. It’s nice to hear it’s like that for other people, and it seemingly can be used in that way, as a tool of sorts. Even when I listen to it, you know, it obviously brings back memories of that specific time, and recording and writing and all of it. And that feeling can connect to a newer loss, as the way that grievances and grief can function. It’s been cool to hear from others that it connects in that way, and not every musician gets to experience that.
Dobbin: I can completely echo that. The record’s relevance increased to me personally in 2019 when several of my family members passed away. When I listened to it in that time, there was a palpable sense of, I guess I would call it, a “healthy catharsis”. The way the record moves, it really feels like a way to honour a person’s passing. But it’s also still a heavy metal record, so for me at least, it’s a really personal way to connect with that event. Whilst heavy metal dwells on death and passage, what you’ve created is really special – it’s a new way of connecting with that very human process.
Dylan: That’s a very interesting idea. I was reading about Yungian idea of ‘the shadow’, the shadows that we all have, unavoidable as we’re alive. As we live, we go through things that fuck us up, whether we’re at fault – we’re probably at fault in some way, in everything – or something else is at fault. This shadow follows us forever, and you can’t break it off. If there’s a traumatic experience in your life, that’s permanent. You can try to live with it and deal with it, but you can’t sever a shadow from yourself. It’s there. In certain lights, you’re going to experience it. I think heavy metal is founded on looking at that shadow, acknowledging it, wearing it, and maybe even being it. There’s the Manowar’s of the world, the over the top, ridiculous comical shit. There’s plenty of that in metal, and it doesn’t discredit examining the shadow. But I fucking love that about heavy metal, it’s so focused on examining that aspect of our lives. Even when it is not intelligible, it’s just silly – that’s fine.
Dobbin: Moving onto your most recent record, Future’s Shadow Part 1: The Clandestine Gate, lots of people will have approached that a lot like Mirror Reaper, as it’s a similar length, split into four movements. But my experience with that record is that it feels completely different. It feels like it’s taking on something else. The sonic aspect that really does that is the use of organs any synthesizers, and that’s made a massive difference. What drove you to bring that into your sound?
Jesse: When I joined during the Four Phantoms touring, I got used to the slow playing and thought, maybe we could add something more? I started messing around with foot pedals and wondering at length about what elements we could add. We settled on the organ, because it’s ‘funeral’ as fuck. It’s also been used as our predecessors, so it’s an ode to bands who are also of the same ilk. As that progressed, I then added a second foot pedal that allowed for multiple chords, making it sound more like you’re using two hands instead of one. As the setup progressed, it became clear to me, through trial and error – it was a complete shitshow with the logistics, footpedals, drumming, and singing – but I figured out how to add more instruments. A Moog Minotaur was added at first, and later piano. All of that was on Mirror Reaper, more understated. With Stygian Bough we started to mess around with synths. Then with The Clandestine Gate, we decided to lean into that more. Dylan already had a bunch of synthesisers, and I had been scheming about how to add a second tier of a pedalboard. Instead of it being one organ module and two synthesizers, I think I can have two organ modules and four synthesisers… it was this weird build.
Jesse: What I really enjoy about it is that it will generally start during the recording process. On the newest record, we added all these synth layers that we had never done on a Bell Witch record. It sounded sick, but meanwhile, we were trying to be really mindful that we were never going to use backing tracks, and that it had to be performed live. It became this really cool, and sort of never ending struggle. A push and pull of how many layers we have, how much we can do live, without having any computers or backing tracks. We’ve both been messing around with synthesisers for a while, so it’s cool to see it blossom. Dylan even has his own synth record now.
Dylan: There were sections on Clandestine Gate that were literally written around the idea of the synthesiser being the foundation of it. Before that, synthesisers or even organs were added in as an enhancing effect. Here, the synthesiser was the foundation, and everything else was the enhancing effect.
Jesse: The opening of Clandestine Gate is basically four minutes of organ. The whole intro section is an ode, in a lot of ways, to the trilogy. This record is an introduction to what’s coming next, but also an introduction to all the new elements as well. There’s a presence from the beginning that puts it separate from Mirror Reaper. Obviously there’s some people that didn’t hear that, and just look at it like it’s just one song. But there’s a huge difference of how this one develops.
Emily: I know that you continue to work with Billy Anderson on your latest record. What originally connected you to him, and how was that entire experience.
Dylan: I think I met him at LA when he lived down there, he just showed up at a show. He’s a character, he’s hilarious. Meeting him was like, woah, that’s the guy who has recorded so many records that are a huge deal in what I view heavy metal as. All those old Neurosis records… The list is vast. Four Phantoms was the first record we did with him. The record we did before that was with our old friend Brandon Fitzsimons from Wormwood. Wormwood had recorded with Billy, and Brandon said that Billy just pulls these tricks out that will make everyone in the room’s jaw drop. Adrian and I said, let’s record with that guy, it’s a legend. Four Phantoms went great, so obviously we had to do Mirror Reaper with him.
Dylan: When we did Four Phantoms, we stayed at his house to do some recording. He had this coffee table, not quite a shrine, in his living room. There was a Tad record on it, the old Seattle band. The band had written a note on it in odd grammar. It said something like “Billy, you are magic”. It was probably fifteen or twenty years since the note was written, but that’s just who Billy is. He brings these crazy ideas that elevate things, that’s his thing – magical guy.
Jesse: Mirror Reaper was a huge challenge for all of us. On a technical end for Billy, it was a mild nightmare. But he has this way of not giving up or getting frustrated in those types of scenarios. He pushes through it whilst also still allowing for experimentation, which I think is really unique. When we recorded Clandestine Gate, the second we came in it was clear that he had been stewing on how to approach it for, probably, months. It was almost like he had learned from Mirror Reaper and was trying to out-do himself, whilst also making it easier on all of us, which, in the end, he did successfully. The mixing and recording of it was kind of seamless, in a lot of ways, considering how much stuff we had added, and how much more he was dealing with. When it comes to the next one, I have no doubt he will have some tricks up his sleeves.
Dobbin: Dylan, you are mostly seen playing Ibanez basses, in the early days an SR 506. Is there something that draws you to the brand?
Dylan: If we’re being honest, they’re often easy to find used… I never set out looking for one, I just end up finding them. My SR 506 that was beat to hell, that was the second six string I bought, and I got it because it was beater. They have good pickups, they play well, they’re good basses. I usually buy everything used – because I’m cheap – but I know that if It’s an Ibanez bass, it’s going to be a quality instrument that will play very well, sound good, it will last, and pieces won’t fall off (which isn’t always true, but such is life).
Dobbin: You recently got a 7 string bass, is that what you’re playing on the new album?
Dylan: That was really just me being an idiot. I saw one for sale online, it was not that far away, I happened to have exactly the amount of money the guy was asking for, so I said fuck it, why not? I went to his place, a normal house, but I walked into a bass shop, with basses covering the walls. He said he hadn’t been playing it much. It’s got an extra high string. I’m getting real nerdy, but the problem is the jump between the neck sizes between 6 and 7 string is kid of like the jump between my Toyta and a 747 airplane… It’s like grabbing onto a tree trunk all of a sudden. I started using it on the Stygian Bough record so I could do harmonies with Erik Moggridge. I didn’t realise the ‘tree trunk’ problem until we were an hour into it, and after that it was too late. But it sounds amazing. I have a 6 string of the same model, all the same details, but this 7 is, like, taking a shit on the 6 string version. When we set out on Clandestine Gate, I think I was planning to use the 6 string, but… The pickups in the 7, they just shriek, which is really hard to get anywhere else.
Emily: Linking back to Billy Anderson, he’s playing in The Keening who you are touring with in May. Could you tell us a bit about them? Dobbin and I both love Rebecca Vernon’s work in SubRosa, so it’s really cool to see her continue to do music.
Dylan: We were around for the genesis of the whole thing. When we we were recording Clandestine Gate, Billy went to work on The Keening record right afterwards. At the time they were still formulating ideas.
Jesse: Rebecca crashed at his place as they were piecing together all the elements. And then Billy was like “I think I might play bass on this!”
Dylan: The Keening record is fucking great. We played with them in Portland a few months ago, and there was this moment I had whilst watching them: for every member in the band, I had a personal connection to some other project they’d been in, a stage of people where they were all personal friends. And that’s pretty fucking cool, it was a very powerful feeling. It’s really cool that we get to play with them, it’s gonna be a cool mix.
Dobbin: In London you’re playing at The Dome with Esoteric.
Dylan: Fuck yeah! Those guys are legends. We once played with them at Boston Music Rooms (Downstairs At The Dome).
Jesse: Not to mention we have another thing in common with them, a sweet, elite group of people… the headset microphone! There’s not many people who do that. We are both very much influenced by Esoteric.
Dobbin: Speaking of mixed bills, you’re also bringing Knoll for your UK run.
Dylan: That’s gonna be a total schizophrenic episode between us and them. I love going to shows like that. There’s nothing wrong with shows that don’t have a blend, that’s fine too, I’m into watching three bands that sound the same if they’re good. But a blend is fucking awesome. Especially Knoll, Esoteric, and Bell Witch… There’s plenty of similarities between us and Esoteric, but it’s very different also. Coming at very different spots, there’s a whole psychedelic aspect to Esoteric that isn’t intentionally aimed at by us. We approach effects in a different way. I think those guys are masters of delay and syncing everything together. That’s a whole world going on in any Esoteric song.
Jesse: 10 or 15 years ago in the heavy scene, there were always mixed bills, because people weren’t so aware of it. You always ended up with hodge-podge lineups, with the touring band, plus the best death metal band in town, plus the best punk band. It still happens in smaller towns, because the scenes are smaller. It’s been cool that we are doing it more consciously now, if we can, to create an interesting show. Knoll are the best example – they’re going to make us seem a lot slower and a lot more melodic, and we’re going to make them seem a lot more chaotic and faster. It’ll be this huge pendulum swing.
Dobbin: Do you two have any particular favourite Esoteric records?
Jesse: I feel like Pernicious Enigma is the one that I listen to the most, just because I have the record. I got it off them the last time we played, they’d just repressed it.
Dylan: Maniacal Vale. Paragon of Dissonance is also fucking great. Pernicious Enigma is classic. They’re all really really good.